My point is that the left’s strategy needs to radically change if it wants to have a hope of stopping fascism.
Cool, so, the thinking is to buy yourself enough time to convince the left to radically change?
No? “We haven’t changed enough yet for my tastes, so this is all pointless”?
To repeat, I want fascism to be stopped here; my argument is that the way the left has been attempting to do so is woefully inadequate.
And that you see no point in buying more time, don’t forget, calling it a ‘farce’ at first, and then, after conceding that there was significant progress, dismissing it as ‘not fast enough’ to be worth considering.
There’s a good fucking chance that I’m a dead man walking. The projections for additional deaths caused directly by this administration are in the millions. Quite literally every fucking left-wing cause in this country has been set back immensely by this fascist victory, and fascists internationally significantly strengthened. And yet there are people here, people like you, who aren’t stupid but seem quite content to bang a very stupid drum, insisting that preventing this would not have been all that big an issue - because we’re all going to die become fascist in the end anyway, so what does it matter if it’s four years from now or today?
I fucking take my meds every day not because I think I’ll gain immortality if I keep doing it, I do it because it staves off death one more day at time. Despite the fact that it doesn’t cure the underlying problem of chronic illness/mortality.
So yeah, I’m a little fucking pissed whenever this comes up.
I agree people should have voted kamala to prevent what’s happening now…
But for progression now, nothing about shaming the voters disenfranchised by the Democrats is worthwhile.
The Democrats were never entitled to any votes, they shouldn’t have been so conceited as to tank their own popularity with conceit in the interest of capital.
The ones who voted for trump are to blame in the immediate for sure, what’s happening right now in the US is tragic. But to be so myopic as to pretend that’s all that matters is foolish.
Here we go again. Not voting for the Dems was fine, because Dems aren’t ‘entitled’ to anyone’s vote. So glad people chose to punish the Dems at the expensive of the lives of millions of actual human beings. But surely, the Dems will learn not to act entitled after THIS defeat. I mean, it didn’t work the last fifty fucking times, but THIS time, they’ll learn their lesson, and all those people murdered by the fascist ghouls that abstainers let into power will at least have their deaths be for a worthy cause!
Yes, the Dems’ll learn any day now… if only we let a few million more minorities get murdered, they’ll surely learn…
I am not saying that not voting for the dems is ‘fine’.
I’m talking about spending your energy appropriately.
I’m saying you can hate the ones who didn’t vote if you want, but it’s a waste of your energy. Voter apathy and disenfranchisement is the fault of the party, not the individual, is what I mean by the entitlement to the vote.
If there are the perpetrators (djt voters and the literal ghouls), the victim are necessarily the remaining group. Just because there were those disenfranchised, doesn’t mean those are the perpetrators, no they are also victims. Just like those who voted against it.
Usually, the party in power loses the election, rather than the opposition ‘winning’ per se on merit out right. They lose it by losing their support through their own actions, or public perception of their actions (which they should be trying to influence). So how did the dems lose 2024? Unless it was stolen which is, quite possible.
You know, like I know, the Dems won’t necessarily learn the right lessons from non voters. I’m not arguing the merit of not voting.
The Dems will only change when they rally around something they see as winning them support. But the only recent example of this, Zohran Mamdani who has huge public support, is being fought with more gusto by the majority of Democrats than they have ever fought DJT.
If the Dems had some policies that they held and didn’t compromise on, and didn’t show such obvious contempt for their constituents during the election season, maybe they would have done better. Not to mention not listening to the consultants who seemingly intentionally tanked their campaign.
Anyway, not here to argue, I don’t disagree with you, I read the other thread here after I left my comment and I agree with you on a lot. I just think if you should hold contempt and hate in your heart for anyone, it should be the perpetrators.
Because if you don’t hold them in contempt, but instead hold other victims in contempt (even if they didn’t vote or voted something silly), then you are essentially reinforcing the bad behaviour even further.
People aren’t motivated by ‘vote for us, we wont do anything tangible, but the other side is super bad’, as much as I would have hoped. They are far more motivated by ‘vote for us, we will do something tangible’ even if the one saying that is lying blatantly, as long as the vibe is confidence.
I am not saying that not voting for the dems is ‘fine’.
Sorry, then. I see the “not entitled” phrasing all the time in the context of justifying not voting for the Dems.
If there are the perpetrators (djt voters and the literal ghouls), the victim are necessarily the remaining group. Just because there were those disenfranchised, doesn’t mean those are the perpetrators, no they are also victims. Just like those who voted against it.
I disagree. People can be, and often are, both victims and perpetrators of that same crime.
Usually, the party in power loses the election, rather than the opposition ‘winning’ per se on merit out right. They lose it by losing their support through their own actions, or public perception of their actions (which they should be trying to influence). So how did the dems lose 2024? Unless it was stolen which is, quite possible.
I mean, the sitting president was a Dem, so they were the party in the power.
The Dems lost for a number of reasons, but the biggest, I would say, are:
Biden choosing to run, and then dropping out. Dropping out was the best decision once it was clear that he was going to lose (something which his campaign, apparently, knew quite early on by internal polling but refused to acknowledge), but choosing the failing run, after implying he would be a one-term president, and then shunting it all to his VP at the last second was fucking ruinous. The resulting campaign was a mess, and there was a significant contingent of low-info voters who were, on election day, confused that Joe Biden wasn’t running.
Harris being an empty suit without any ideals or charisma.
The Harris campaign being run by utter lunatics and incompetents.
The Dems will only change when they rally around something they see as winning them support. But the only recent example of this, Zohran Mamdani who has huge public support, is being fought with more gusto by the majority of Democrats than they have ever fought DJT.
This is untrue. Some high-ranking Dems have failed to rally around Mamdani like they should, and that is legitimately unacceptable - but the idea that Dems are fighting Mamdani more than they fought Trump is just not in-line with reality. Nor, for that matter, is it the majority of Dems.
Because if you don’t hold them in contempt, but instead hold other victims in contempt (even if they didn’t vote or voted something silly), then you are essentially reinforcing the bad behaviour even further.
Oh, don’t worry. I have plenty of contempt to go around. Most of my contempt is towards the most active perpetrators of this fascist insanity, but as you yourself note here, failing to hold perpetrators in contempt reinforces bad behavior - and celebration of sabotage of anti-fascist coalitions is absolutely bad behavior.
Cool, so, the thinking is to buy yourself enough time to convince the left to radically change?
No? “We haven’t changed enough yet for my tastes, so this is all pointless”?
And that you see no point in buying more time, don’t forget, calling it a ‘farce’ at first, and then, after conceding that there was significant progress, dismissing it as ‘not fast enough’ to be worth considering.
There’s a good fucking chance that I’m a dead man walking. The projections for additional deaths caused directly by this administration are in the millions. Quite literally every fucking left-wing cause in this country has been set back immensely by this fascist victory, and fascists internationally significantly strengthened. And yet there are people here, people like you, who aren’t stupid but seem quite content to bang a very stupid drum, insisting that preventing this would not have been all that big an issue - because we’re all going to
diebecome fascist in the end anyway, so what does it matter if it’s four years from now or today?I fucking take my meds every day not because I think I’ll gain immortality if I keep doing it, I do it because it staves off death one more day at time. Despite the fact that it doesn’t cure the underlying problem of chronic illness/mortality.
So yeah, I’m a little fucking pissed whenever this comes up.
I agree people should have voted kamala to prevent what’s happening now…
But for progression now, nothing about shaming the voters disenfranchised by the Democrats is worthwhile.
The Democrats were never entitled to any votes, they shouldn’t have been so conceited as to tank their own popularity with conceit in the interest of capital.
The ones who voted for trump are to blame in the immediate for sure, what’s happening right now in the US is tragic. But to be so myopic as to pretend that’s all that matters is foolish.
Here we go again. Not voting for the Dems was fine, because Dems aren’t ‘entitled’ to anyone’s vote. So glad people chose to punish the Dems at the expensive of the lives of millions of actual human beings. But surely, the Dems will learn not to act entitled after THIS defeat. I mean, it didn’t work the last fifty fucking times, but THIS time, they’ll learn their lesson, and all those people murdered by the fascist ghouls that abstainers let into power will at least have their deaths be for a worthy cause!
Yes, the Dems’ll learn any day now… if only we let a few million more minorities get murdered, they’ll surely learn…
The dems won’t learn, I didn’t say they will.
I am not saying that not voting for the dems is ‘fine’.
I’m talking about spending your energy appropriately.
I’m saying you can hate the ones who didn’t vote if you want, but it’s a waste of your energy. Voter apathy and disenfranchisement is the fault of the party, not the individual, is what I mean by the entitlement to the vote.
If there are the perpetrators (djt voters and the literal ghouls), the victim are necessarily the remaining group. Just because there were those disenfranchised, doesn’t mean those are the perpetrators, no they are also victims. Just like those who voted against it.
Usually, the party in power loses the election, rather than the opposition ‘winning’ per se on merit out right. They lose it by losing their support through their own actions, or public perception of their actions (which they should be trying to influence). So how did the dems lose 2024? Unless it was stolen which is, quite possible.
You know, like I know, the Dems won’t necessarily learn the right lessons from non voters. I’m not arguing the merit of not voting.
The Dems will only change when they rally around something they see as winning them support. But the only recent example of this, Zohran Mamdani who has huge public support, is being fought with more gusto by the majority of Democrats than they have ever fought DJT.
If the Dems had some policies that they held and didn’t compromise on, and didn’t show such obvious contempt for their constituents during the election season, maybe they would have done better. Not to mention not listening to the consultants who seemingly intentionally tanked their campaign.
Anyway, not here to argue, I don’t disagree with you, I read the other thread here after I left my comment and I agree with you on a lot. I just think if you should hold contempt and hate in your heart for anyone, it should be the perpetrators.
Because if you don’t hold them in contempt, but instead hold other victims in contempt (even if they didn’t vote or voted something silly), then you are essentially reinforcing the bad behaviour even further.
People aren’t motivated by ‘vote for us, we wont do anything tangible, but the other side is super bad’, as much as I would have hoped. They are far more motivated by ‘vote for us, we will do something tangible’ even if the one saying that is lying blatantly, as long as the vibe is confidence.
Sorry, then. I see the “not entitled” phrasing all the time in the context of justifying not voting for the Dems.
I disagree. People can be, and often are, both victims and perpetrators of that same crime.
I mean, the sitting president was a Dem, so they were the party in the power.
The Dems lost for a number of reasons, but the biggest, I would say, are:
Biden choosing to run, and then dropping out. Dropping out was the best decision once it was clear that he was going to lose (something which his campaign, apparently, knew quite early on by internal polling but refused to acknowledge), but choosing the failing run, after implying he would be a one-term president, and then shunting it all to his VP at the last second was fucking ruinous. The resulting campaign was a mess, and there was a significant contingent of low-info voters who were, on election day, confused that Joe Biden wasn’t running.
Harris being an empty suit without any ideals or charisma.
The Harris campaign being run by utter lunatics and incompetents.
This is untrue. Some high-ranking Dems have failed to rally around Mamdani like they should, and that is legitimately unacceptable - but the idea that Dems are fighting Mamdani more than they fought Trump is just not in-line with reality. Nor, for that matter, is it the majority of Dems.
Oh, don’t worry. I have plenty of contempt to go around. Most of my contempt is towards the most active perpetrators of this fascist insanity, but as you yourself note here, failing to hold perpetrators in contempt reinforces bad behavior - and celebration of sabotage of anti-fascist coalitions is absolutely bad behavior.