I’m in a comment war with a nicotine denialist on here now!
In the 90s, there were still tons of people angry about seat belt laws. It’s every American’s God Given Right to fly out of the windshield and probably kill someone else.
As a left libertarian, I have a hard time arguing against seatbelt laws. As in, I know they aren’t consistent with my ideology, but the outcomes of having these laws are so much better than not having them. The only thing that I can say against them is that they’re one of the more commonly used bullshit pretexts for initiating traffic stops. I rationalize this trade off and violation of ideals by pointing out that the government has created a fucked up transportation market by enforcing car centrism, and until we can unfuck that, we need to deal with the side effects.
I think the argument is more about the impact on others. If you aren’t wearing a seatbelt, you become a projectile that can harm others - both in your car and outside of your car.
In general, I agree that ideologically it’s a little uncomfortable to dictate personal choices, but when it comes to road safety I think the government has reasonable grounds to enforce certain expectations (same with things like insurance.)
It is uncomfortable to give police more pretenses to stop people but road safety perhaps is one of those things we could have a hypothetical “good police force” take care of.
Ehhhh… Traffic stops are more often than not excuses to fish for other, more serious violations or initiate a civil asset forfeiture. It’s actually one of the big reasons I’m hugely pro-transit and anti-car-centrism, because it robs the state of a huge excuse for initiating police contacts.
Government dictating that citizens MUST give money to a private company who then gives money to the politicians who make that mandate is wildly immoral. Insurance should be a government program.
Insurance as a whole should be a sort of “public union” thing. No profit motive, everyone who participates in something like driving has to pay some fee for insurance, maybe along with things like registration. Ideally along with massive improvements to public transit.
The concept of private insurance under capitalism seems at odds with itself. You have to pay out a good chunk less then you take in to turn a profit, and the best way to do that is be useless and fuck over your customers. (With health - Cigna was supposed to cover my top surgery. Pay for it up front be reimbursed reimbursed later. Then, later, it turns out that my employer specifically included a rider that excluded it. I’ve talked elsewhere about how I’ve paid CareCredit back.)
I don’t know if we should nationalize auto insurance without doing health insurance first though. Would the government be negotiating deals with mechanics? I think hospitals have structures that are easier to unionize and generally smarter/kinder folks than the general population. Mechanics tend to skew the type that’d get upset over navigating fender bender payouts with Uncle Sam, probably going to be harder to get to understand that their labor rights are good things.
People are emotional. They feel things, and then make up justifications for it afterwards. We all do this to some extent, in some contexts or others, but some people seem to do it the majority of the time.
Someone who smokes and has a choice between admitting they fucked up, they’re hurting themselves and those around them, OR denying it so they’re just a persecuted innocent? A lot of people will go for the latter. It’s weakness and cowardice, but saying that won’t change their mind. If results are wanted we have to do the very arduous task of massaging their emotions and I kind of resent that thankless, endless, work. Even though I almost certainly am the same way about other things.
As a former smoker (now vaper) I understand and agree with non smokers about smoking inside.
However the people who bitch about smokers outside in public piss me off.
Yes my cigarette (now vape) is soooooo much worse than the exhaust of the thousands of cars /generators/construction equipment and so on that are constantly running all around us.
But out of sight out of mind. They can’t see all that exhaust shit so it doesn’t exist - But those fucking smokers how dare they.
I also get mad at people who drive cars instead of walking or taking mass transit, if that helps.
But someone smoking near you makes your day undeniably, immediately, worse.
If you’re sitting in a room that smells uncomfortably of cheese, and someone rips a juicy fart on your face, it would be unreasonable to be like “who cares about my shart it smells like cheese in here”
Yes my cigarette (now vape) is soooooo much worse than the exhaust of the thousands of cars /generators/construction equipment and so on that are constantly running all around us.
The problem is that nicotine itself isn’t a carcinogen, but increases the effectiveness of other carcinogens. So like, the nic is going to make that car exhaust/etc more harmful.
I have asthma and when I walk past a smoker it makes it harder for me to breathe for a while afterwards. I don’t have the same issue with vapes though so I don’t really care about those even inside of they smell nice.
Looked it up and I had no idea how bad second hand vapor can be. I don’t vape or smoke but I’ll give them both the same level of stink eye going forward.
I don’t breath in exhaust either, fully concentrated. I have as much of a problem with diffused cigarette smoke as diffused exhaust, but I fucking hate smokers that make me breath in their second hand fully potent, carcinogenic, horrible smelling smoke.
My step dad had like 4 or 5 DUIs. When I was in elementary school, me and my siblings would get the privilege of “helping” start the car by showing how awesome we were at breathing!
Like, if you can afford the lawyers and come off as the right kind of good ol’ boy it doesn’t seem to matter. I think at one point he got weekend prison. He’d drive us to school with a high ball sitting in the center console.
Lot of people in my town with “party plates”. Yellow plate with red letters to signal to cops that you are a frequent DUI fiend. No clue how youend up with those instead of just having your license revoked
I am evil for this and I admit it.
Seat belts laws should not be enforced on adults.
A windshield dive is a good cure for stupid, I bet a lot of MAGA would literally go out like that.
I’m in a comment war with a nicotine denialist on here now!
In the 90s, there were still tons of people angry about seat belt laws. It’s every American’s God Given Right to fly out of the windshield and probably kill someone else.
There is this meme about:
Rhode Island state rep, 2011.
Don’t forget airbags have also killed people.
As a left libertarian, I have a hard time arguing against seatbelt laws. As in, I know they aren’t consistent with my ideology, but the outcomes of having these laws are so much better than not having them. The only thing that I can say against them is that they’re one of the more commonly used bullshit pretexts for initiating traffic stops. I rationalize this trade off and violation of ideals by pointing out that the government has created a fucked up transportation market by enforcing car centrism, and until we can unfuck that, we need to deal with the side effects.
I think the argument is more about the impact on others. If you aren’t wearing a seatbelt, you become a projectile that can harm others - both in your car and outside of your car.
In general, I agree that ideologically it’s a little uncomfortable to dictate personal choices, but when it comes to road safety I think the government has reasonable grounds to enforce certain expectations (same with things like insurance.)
It is uncomfortable to give police more pretenses to stop people but road safety perhaps is one of those things we could have a hypothetical “good police force” take care of.
Ehhhh… Traffic stops are more often than not excuses to fish for other, more serious violations or initiate a civil asset forfeiture. It’s actually one of the big reasons I’m hugely pro-transit and anti-car-centrism, because it robs the state of a huge excuse for initiating police contacts.
Government dictating that citizens MUST give money to a private company who then gives money to the politicians who make that mandate is wildly immoral. Insurance should be a government program.
Insurance as a whole should be a sort of “public union” thing. No profit motive, everyone who participates in something like driving has to pay some fee for insurance, maybe along with things like registration. Ideally along with massive improvements to public transit.
The concept of private insurance under capitalism seems at odds with itself. You have to pay out a good chunk less then you take in to turn a profit, and the best way to do that is be useless and fuck over your customers. (With health - Cigna was supposed to cover my top surgery. Pay for it up front be reimbursed reimbursed later. Then, later, it turns out that my employer specifically included a rider that excluded it. I’ve talked elsewhere about how I’ve paid CareCredit back.)
I don’t know if we should nationalize auto insurance without doing health insurance first though. Would the government be negotiating deals with mechanics? I think hospitals have structures that are easier to unionize and generally smarter/kinder folks than the general population. Mechanics tend to skew the type that’d get upset over navigating fender bender payouts with Uncle Sam, probably going to be harder to get to understand that their labor rights are good things.
Where’d you get a picture off all my elder family members in one place!? (j/k)
People are emotional. They feel things, and then make up justifications for it afterwards. We all do this to some extent, in some contexts or others, but some people seem to do it the majority of the time.
Someone who smokes and has a choice between admitting they fucked up, they’re hurting themselves and those around them, OR denying it so they’re just a persecuted innocent? A lot of people will go for the latter. It’s weakness and cowardice, but saying that won’t change their mind. If results are wanted we have to do the very arduous task of massaging their emotions and I kind of resent that thankless, endless, work. Even though I almost certainly am the same way about other things.
Humans are a mess.
As a former smoker (now vaper) I understand and agree with non smokers about smoking inside.
However the people who bitch about smokers outside in public piss me off.
Yes my cigarette (now vape) is soooooo much worse than the exhaust of the thousands of cars /generators/construction equipment and so on that are constantly running all around us.
But out of sight out of mind. They can’t see all that exhaust shit so it doesn’t exist - But those fucking smokers how dare they.
I also get mad at people who drive cars instead of walking or taking mass transit, if that helps.
But someone smoking near you makes your day undeniably, immediately, worse.
If you’re sitting in a room that smells uncomfortably of cheese, and someone rips a juicy fart on your face, it would be unreasonable to be like “who cares about my shart it smells like cheese in here”
The problem is that nicotine itself isn’t a carcinogen, but increases the effectiveness of other carcinogens. So like, the nic is going to make that car exhaust/etc more harmful.
I haven’t seen any car exhausts walking right next to me on the sidewalk though.
I have asthma and when I walk past a smoker it makes it harder for me to breathe for a while afterwards. I don’t have the same issue with vapes though so I don’t really care about those even inside of they smell nice.
Some of us do struggle to breathe around vapes though. Not as bad as cigarettes but it’s still a problem
Looked it up and I had no idea how bad second hand vapor can be. I don’t vape or smoke but I’ll give them both the same level of stink eye going forward.
I don’t breath in exhaust either, fully concentrated. I have as much of a problem with diffused cigarette smoke as diffused exhaust, but I fucking hate smokers that make me breath in their second hand fully potent, carcinogenic, horrible smelling smoke.
Even better, people in the 80s when drinking and driving was made illegal: https://youtu.be/2xcQIoh3FQQ
Still meet plenty of people who drink beer in the car
My step dad had like 4 or 5 DUIs. When I was in elementary school, me and my siblings would get the privilege of “helping” start the car by showing how awesome we were at breathing!
Like, if you can afford the lawyers and come off as the right kind of good ol’ boy it doesn’t seem to matter. I think at one point he got weekend prison. He’d drive us to school with a high ball sitting in the center console.
Lot of people in my town with “party plates”. Yellow plate with red letters to signal to cops that you are a frequent DUI fiend. No clue how youend up with those instead of just having your license revoked
My father was an anti-seatbelter up until 2010-ish, when he got a newer car with a better seatbelt system.
Real men aren’t held back by anything! The belt restricts blood flow through the body! It’s a globalist conspiracy to turn our men into women!
Real Chad’s don’t let some dumb straps stop them from pumping blood like a REAL PATRIOT! B)
Aren’t belts not required in Utah
Also there are pro-asbestos movements
Required as of 2015 looks like.
Guess I’m just old
I am evil for this and I admit it.
Seat belts laws should not be enforced on adults. A windshield dive is a good cure for stupid, I bet a lot of MAGA would literally go out like that.
Trauma, potential physical harm to others. A whole set of reasons they should be enforced. I get what you’re saying though.
Oh, I know it’s a bad point of view. In my defense I live in a no motorcycle helmet state. As long as you carry the insurance for it.
That is so fucking stupid lol. I guess you’re in a freedumb state?
You should see our gun laws. Buy it, carry it however and wherever you want. Constitutional carry.