The Rogue storyline proves that New Who has a writing problem that has nothing to do with being too woke, and, in fact, at least in parts more with being not woke enough. What reason could there be to hint at, introduce, develop, carry out, end, and bury a love interest all within one single episode, if not as concession for people against those story line to be able to avoid it altogether? Disney isn’t actually progressive, they never were, and where corporate pride/POC representation is implemented it’s because the cost calculation tells them it pays off, not because they actually represent any of those values.
The Doctor would never give up on anyone. Heck, in the next episode he cried more about some random guard post than the man who proposed to him. Until he at least attempts to get Rogue back I will have to assume the Doctor has either been replaced by some kind of doppelganger, or the writers at Disney lack the balls to actually portray a modern and gay Doctor after all.
They just don’t want to take credit for making doctor who suck themselves. Doctor who has always been woke, but now it just sucks
I feel that the whole “Woke/DEI” era will be remembered as a poorly timed inflection point. On one hand, you had the media conglomerates, who, instead of investing in original content decided to put stock in continuations of established franchises which often had poor writing and were poorly executed. These works also just happened to have a “diversity” angel to them. At the same time, we saw the increase in right wing voices online that started to infiltrate the fandoms of those already established franchises.
Social media algorithms also began to push this kind of content to a wider audience. How many times have you seen a random Youtube video with titles like " X is WOKE PROPAGANDA TRASH! Hollywoke is in DECLINE! " appear in your feed or homepage? If the work in question was a critical flop (i.e. terrible), it was not a flop because of creative deficiencies. No, it was a flop because it had a non-binary black character!
You never heard legitimate criticisms like “Hollywood is putting profits before good entertainment” or “[Show or movie] had poor writing, bad acting, terrible direction and didn’t contribute anything to already established canon.”
Take Deep Space 9 as an example. A great show with a very diverse cast but that diversity would be useless if the characters weren’t as fleshed out as they were. Now imagine what the discourse around DS9 would look like if it were made today:
“A New BLACK Protagonist? Star Trek Has Gone WOKE!”
“Jadzia Dax and Odo: Trans Ideology PROPAGANDA?!”
When a new piece of media comes out and there is a massive stir attached to it, ask yourself this: is the criticism warranted or is it ideology driven?
I’ve always loved the themes doctor who tries to address in its episodes, but it’s sad in the most recent seasons they seem to have lost any form of subtlety/intelligence…
It used to be episodes showing you a moral dilemma, raising the question and often making it clear there is no perfect solution. The characters would make choice, maybe not the ones you’d make, but from understandable motivations. Sometimes the bad guys would have understandable motivations, and you’d feel sorry for them.
Lately it has been so black & white. More like “see this guy, he represents trump, trump is bad, he is bad”. No dilemmas, no raising questions, not letting you think for yourself or challenging your beliefs. More like “this is good, this is bad, don’t think more about it please”.
I also don’t think doctor who has become more woke, but it has become so much less intelligent, no longer considering the viewer as a person capable of reaching their own conclusions. Everything has to be clear and black and white. And if you don’t agree with the protagonists you’re bad.
Agreed. Not sure how much the Disney distribution deal has affected how they handle subtlety. Or just a new show runner that might just not be as good.
I found Steven Moffat to be very good while Russel T Davis has had some excellent moments during his first run, with true existential terror surfacing in the show, lately it has become a Disney ride.
Not sure if he lost some key contributor that gave the show an edge or they decided to try to bring a younger audience in. It doesn’t feel like it has the gravitas it had there for a while.
I don’t see people defending the newer shows by saying the writing is great or the plot tight. I just see arguments about politics and social messages.
The show turned to shit many years ago, way before any wokeness. There’s nothing to defend.
this is what doctor who does. Just like in the 80s. It has it’s ups and down, but its always changing. That’s what makes it special. The doctor regenerates, the show-runner changes and the show moves on. It’s not like the other shows that just get cancelled. It’s doctor who. It’s the longest running sci-fi show in the world.
I look forward to future Dr Whos.
I’ve been watching that show for decades, and I have seen the ups and downs.
This cycle of shoddy work is unique because of the era. But if there is any luck I hope to see better dr who later, followed by something equally bad but different.
The corporations are just using the culture war to deflect any criticism against the bad product they made. Like criticize the new Assasins Creed or Snow White and people, especially the gauche caviar press, will call you a racist, even when you weren’t even criticizing the “wokeness”
The people who cheer for the replacement of historically caucasian/male gender roles with minority actors/women, are the same people who protest the replacement of historically minority/women roles with caucasian/male actors. And they wonder why there’s push back.
It depends on context. Doctor Who is a fictional character. Historical figures are not. It isn’t hard to understand why there are different reactions there.
Scarlet Johansen as the Major in Ghost in the Shell Tilda Swinton as the Ancient One in Dr Strange Controversy around characters like Iron Fist etc
Asian fictional characters often get white washed. Results in protests from minority groups who feel they’re being denied representation in their own culture’s created artwork, and roles in movies/shows – just like how replacing caucasian fictional characters results in protests from groups who feel they’re having their cultural representation in media suppressed by minority interests. But whatever man. Guess those dont count.
The Major is literally a full cyborg, the Scar Jo replacement didn’t bother me too much. The ancient one was a Tibetan monk and China actively tries to repress Buddhist representation.
I know nothing about those particular shows or films. I would expect a US remake of a show or film to possibly do recasts.
Does this upset you? I believe Thailand also did a modern reimagining of Snow White too, with a Thai actress playing the role.
Doctor Who has always been a character who can regenerate and reform by design. They’re an alien species. I’d argue its more important they’re eccentric guile heroes in performance than their sex or race.
So the argument is what, that the white people who had a ‘role model’ for their kids shouldn’t be annoyed that the industry is removing that role model, because race shouldn’t matter. But also that race representation matters, and that it’s important for other races to have representation by taking over the roles of those figures.
It doesn’t upset me, it just doesn’t make sense to me. Like I accept that parents want to have positive role models that ‘look like’ their kids, as it helps kids development. So it makes sense that minority groups want to see themselves represented as such in media, and that they’d celebrate established characters being swapped over to be their race/gender. However, that same line of thinking explains why white people are annoyed that their kids are ‘losing’ role models that ‘look like them’. If you assert that ‘race matters’ (and I accept that it does for kids), then it seems reasonable to be annoyed that those characters are being ‘taken away’ for practically the same reason that it seems reasonable for minority groups to be happy to see themselves represented. If race representation matters for the character and kids having positive role models, than its arguably worse to disenfranchise the larger group of kids.
I mean, we’re busy watching young guys flock to alpha dumbass influencer bros, in part because there are fewer and fewer positive role models for them to look up to.
So the argument is what, that the white people who had a ‘role model’ for their kids shouldn’t be annoyed that the industry is removing that role model, because race shouldn’t matter. But also that race representation matters, and that it’s important for other races to have representation by taking over the roles of those figures.
Regarding Doctor Who, Nguti will not be the Doctor forever. He’s just one of many. Whether or not he was specifically chosen because he’s black or not, I don’t know, but I don’t see any inherent problem with the Doctor being black. Race shouldn’t be core to the identity of the doctor.
I mean, we’re busy watching young guys flock to alpha dumbass influencer bros, in part because there are fewer and fewer positive role models for them to look up to.
I think this is a much wider issue beyond the casting for Doctor Who. I’d argue the general decline of entertainment monoculture in general plays more of a role here than any particular creative decision for remakes or reimagining of TV series and films.
Nobody who enjoys Dr Who for what it is, a series of morality tales and social commentary, gives a shit about if the Dr Who is woke or if the lead is man, woman or something between, let alone their ethnicity (though for sake of continuity they better have a british accent of some descriptor.)
What long time Who fans don’t like is poorly written and executed stories, for which there has been far too many of in recent years.
If Doctor Who isn’t woke then the showrunner’s fuckin something up
You can’t make something that’s a pile of shit and then hide behind oppression from right wing assholes online. If you watch interviews of the showrunner he knew it was going to be terrible before was ever published when he basically said “It’s ok to like things.”
If they think Doctor Who has “gone” woke, they have not been watching.
I remember Captain Jack Harkness flirting with anything that moves, regardless of gender identity or species.
These are the same people who say Star Trek has gone woke.
Or that Rage Against the Machine has gone political
The last time I was sentenced to death, I ordered four hyper-vodkas for my breakfast. All a bit of a blur after that… I woke up in bed with both of my executioners. Lovely couple, they stayed in touch! Can’t say that about most executioners.
I’m laughing at the “people just hate the bad plots” my bean i am a classic who fan. I have been since it was still on the air. I have seen shit that would melt their tiny minds.
Ken Dodds on fire off the shoulder of Butlins.
give me dat sweet sweet honey
Unfortunately his behavior continued on set. Creepy dude.
But his character wasn’t meant to be creepy, and I need to remember that from time to time.
Oh damn, that’s unfortunate
Context fwiw:
https://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/john-barrowmans-scandals-full-jaw-33702480
My opinions: Was he called out for exposing himself and being incredibly inappropriate? Yes.
Has he apologized and faced consequences? Yes, multiple times, but maybe not enough for some.
Is he a sexual predator? Probably Not.
I have to disagree a bit here, the recent writing has tried to very heavily shoe-horn it in, whereas in the past it was much more naturally present.
I think the worst one for me (before I quit watching) was with the enormous spiders in the hotel run by a very Trumpian figure.
“Trump” wanted to just shoot the enormous spider, but the Doctor stopped him saying “no weapons, ever”. The spider then died an agonizing death caused by suffocation on-screen mere seconds later. Her offspring was lured and locked into a storage room with food, after which they would surely either cannibalize themselves or starve. Actually shooting them would’ve been a mercy at that point.
When presented with the Doctor’s solution versus the “Trump” solution, I felt more sympathy for “Trump”. And I fucking hate that guy. That’s when I knew the writing just wasn’t for me anymore.
There’s a reason even the more diehard Whovians, who are very much considered “woke” are tuning out. It’s not the cast, it’s the writing.
Arachnids in the uk was 7 years ago, with a different cast, a different show runner, hell a different production company and channel.
So if it was the one that made you quit watching, how can you opine on the current run?
Arachnids in the uk was 7 years ago
Oh ffs I wasn’t ready for that gut punch.
wait until you hear about eccles’ season…
It made me quit watching Jodie’s run (which is too bad, because I like her). I gave it a other go when Ncuti took over, and I really enjoyed most of Tennant’s quick stint. But unfortunately after that the bad writing took over again and Ncuti also was saddled with some bad stories.
The Doctor has been pretty anti-gun for as long as I’ve been watching. Honestly I just felt the Chibnal era lost a bit of magic, less campy/extreme/wild ride feeling to it. The first new season I thought was pretty decent.
True, but that translated into anti-violence most of the time. Here there was a chance to either give the creature mercy and kill it quickly, or let it suffer a horrible painful frightening death. At that point, what is exactly the ethical choice?
I thought the new run opened fairly poorly. Imo most of the issues I have with Who writing are still there.
I have to admit I kinda stopped following the series after Capaldi left.
So that was during Chris Chibnalls era of running the show, which is, well, shit (good video about it, its long though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8_A7n83Rh0 )
Yeah but my biggest criticisms haven’t changed during Ncuti’s go at it either. Not that he can help it much, he too gets crappy writing.
There was a brief resurgence in apparent good writing when Tennant took over, though the final faceoff with the Toymaker was deeply disappointing. Loved seeing Catherine again though, she was amazing in the 2nd episode.
Sethu and Gatwa’s pairing means that two people of color will pilot the Tardis for the first time in Doctor Who’s history. “Ncuti was like, ‘Look at us. We get to be in the Tardis. We’re going to piss off so many people’,” she said.
I know he what he means, but to be pedantic, this is not the first time a person of colour person has been in the Tardis. There have been several black companions (Mickey, Martha, Bill Potts); there have even been two people of colour as companions at the same time (Ryan and Yaz). You could even say that Martha was the first black doctor to pilot the Tardis. :P
I’m happy to see a POC Doctor and companion though.
Did any of those characters actually “pilot” the tardis? I remember incidents of them being “in” the tardis and it autopilots or is remotely sent away by the doc, but but never directly controlled by them in any meaningful way, though admittedly I’m a bit hazy on the Ryan/Yaz seasons at this point.
What do we call it when the show has politics you agree with but you still think its too heavy handed and the messaging constantly feels like you’re being talked down to?
The Boys
Star Trek Discovery
No effing doubt.
Didn’t need the Discovery part for 90% of the series tbh
Patronising. RTD loves to be patronising because he doesn’t understand subtlety.
If I lived in a monarchy I’d be patronizing to everyone around me too, they’re into that shit
bad
this is just how RTD writes Doctor Who, but people loved it the first time for some reason.
when someone is patronizing and talking down to us it means either we are at work or on Reddit
It means you are above average intelligence. Its a burden.
That engine is woke.
This reinforces my perspective that when people complain about “woke” media they are complaining about badly written media (which features minorities). The 2005 reboot of Doctor Who has always strongly featured minorities, but the quality has gradually declined season after season. Nobody complained about the bisexual Jack Harkness, who got his own spin-off. Different people gave up at different times – IMO it was a dumpster fire by season 4 already, but others held on through the Matt Smith era or even the Capaldi era. (Not denying there were good episodes still now and then.) Series 11 was unwatchably bad – but not because the Doctor was portrayed by a woman.
Similarly, Star Wars: Andor, has a lot of diversity in the cast! It’s a great show, best Star Wars media since Episode V in my opinion. But it’s Star Wars: The Adept people are calling woke, since it’s trash.
100%. The core problem is inserted politics won’t save a bad project, and since the project is bad the only interesting thing to talk about is the inserted politics.
A great project, or even just good, can insert whatever it likes and people will focus on the good parts and the inserted politics won’t dominate the conversation.
My rule of thumb: if the only thing you hear about a project is how political it is, then it’s a bad project and there is nothing else worth talking about.
Funny seeing you here :) Also hear hear!
No. There’s been a rampup of bigotry.
That probably has contributed, but I remember people complaining about woke media by any other name 10 years ago. A lot. Who’s criticising Andor for being woke?
I see this article title:
“Andor is refreshingly non-woke content from Disney”
Umm… did they watch the same show I did? The one with the lesbians, people of colour, and women giving orders to men?
Uh, they are complaining that Andor is woke
If someone says something is “woke” at this point you can pretty much safely disregard them as utter shitheads
I haven’t found anyone complaining Andor is woke from a quick google search. I’m sure there are some people saying that but it’s really nothing compared to other media being accused of being woke. People who use the term woke this way somehow can’t reconcile diversity with intelligent writing.
If someone says something is “woke” at this point you can pretty much safely disregard them as utter shitheads
Well yeah, that can go without saying lol.
I think the algos may be lying to you. A quick search on my end lands tons of results, including a classic neckbeard diatribe
[what you linked was]* 2.6k views only. I search youtube for “woke star wars” and I see acolyte, acolyte, star wars, acolyte, disney; all with 10x or 100x the views. if these videos mention andor they’re not putting it front and center that’s for sure.
Edit: I’ve also been watching The Pitt, a refreshingly sharp medical drama; it’s got an extremely diverse cast, with gay and trans characters, and people of colour; the head of the hospital is black – I literally can’t find one article online about it with the word “woke.”
Back in the Tom Baker era, they routinely talked of the Prime Minister as ‘she.’
Those shows were made long before Thatcher came to power.
Doctor Who is responsible for Margaret Thatcher? Wow, maybe this show does suck after all.
Those shows were made long before Thatcher came to power.
They spoke it into existence.
I have more criticism over Disney being involved in production than anything “woke”.
I just hope the new seasons has some good stories, I stopped watching after a few Capaldi episodes the stories were less interesting.
I watched the first new season. It has ups and downs, but definitely some good episodes in it. I also felt frustrated the longer Stephen Moffat had his run, and then Chris chibnall was straight up boring.
I will still watch it for reasons… …
Same. I don’t even like dr the who
