Only the ones who saw it coming a decade ago are the ones who feel this way, like a slow moving nightmare come true while you scream away at all your friends and family only to be called a lunatic.

The ones who are unable to reflect / reason / see clearly / are stuck in propaganda are hard to move from their position simply because of the nature of how they got there in the first place.

We let this beast called greed grow unchecked for so long in the shadows and now it has come out in the open, stepping on the throat of democracy, equality, & freedom.

Extract, Transform, Load - 3 steps to move data from one place to another

Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.

I’m referring to kids before even going to school. Ego / identity develops in kids by around age 5, that’s when they see the I separate from the rest, they see the difference between what they have and what others have, they find this identity that only belongs to them in this sea of identities and they adjust and they react. I’m not sure if you’ve talked to kids before age 5, I’ve raised a few kids, and so I’m talking from experience.

Humans by default want to love one another unconditionally. It is how kids are, it is how our pets are. It is our biases and prejudices and labels and insecurities and traumas that have made our love for one another conditional. The whole world needed a big hug after the pandemic. We didn’t get one. We saw powerful propaganda being an effectual tool in sowing discord, and it worked by appealing to our individualism, incorrectly overriding collectivism. With the visible rise of individualism worldwide, we’re all shriveling in our lonely corners, unloved. Everyone is, not just those choosing the individualism. The world needs loving. Here’s a hug for everyone who reads this comment. I love you unconditionally.

Nobody is saying your emotions are invalid. Your feelings are very valid. Here’s a hug from me to you to prove the point (I hope it counts, lol). All I’m saying is that anger is instinctive & it clouds our judgement (like we literally can’t process any other thoughts while angry). If you calmly think about it, you instantly reacted and insulted me and other poster above you, you put us both in the ‘other team’, while we were both in your team all along. That my friend is anger leading to more individualism (you alone in your room) over collectivism (same team). That is the exact same weakness that is exploited by those doing the propaganda. And that is why we all need to rise over it.

I feel the mad in you, I sincerely do, but when the whole ocean is moving in a certain way due to underlying currents, it is incorrect to place the blame on any individual droplet, for none of them individually are responsible for it or have the power to control or alter it. Understand that the droplets themselves are moving because of the said currents. The best you can do is accept reality and plan your course ahead. The mad only burns you from inside without solving any problem.

PS: to everyone commenting below me, now mad at me -

1. everyone is accountable for their individual actions and I’m not absolving anyone of their individual responsibilities.
2. I’m not telling you that you shouldn’t feel the mad, rather that I get the mad that you feel. I’m just as mad as you.
3. After being mad at all your friends and family for say about a decade, you come to realize that most of them are simple minds susceptible to propaganda, and that propaganda works, and that it works because it appeals to the human instinct of individualism (incorrectly overriding collectivism) using tools like fear and anger. We need to rise over our own anger and other instincts to see all this so we can better move forward.

Sorry, why is that 3rd man the villain of the story, and what do you mean humans fumbled the ball?

It’s way more complicated than that. Say hypothetically, we have an abundance of milk which we don’t but assume we do, so everyone can have as much milk as they wanted, and nobody needs to pay for it. First of all, the entire supply chain of milk production, packaging, & distribution must still exist & function efficiently, & maintain quality standards, much like it does in the current developed world. People will still need to work, farmers must still milk the cows, factories must still produce and package, goods must still be transported to and shelved on retail outlets for customers to access it. Someone still needs to clean the retail floor, and someone still needs to engage with the customers, and you need a way to reasonably compensate everyone involved. Second of all, what about milk derivatives that are not abundant, like cheese or butter or your favorite Greek yogurt? They are not in abundance, so you’re back to a scarcity economy and you need to figure out how to reasonably distribute them based on need.

Not sure why what? Btw I found this to add to the discussion - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swpR41pRdMA - it seems market socialism is compatible with Marxism - markets existed before capitalism and will exist in market socialism too, while planning could be a mix of central and local.

So you’re saying the fediverse can’t outgrow Reddit because it’s FOSS and not corporate controlled? I’m saying it will and there’s nothing Reddit can do about it.

Okay, at least we’re talking about execution now. I’ll read the essay, but like unix and fediverse and credit unions exist right now and capitalists can’t stop them. They can only compete with them in the free market. They certainly won’t be able to stop them once they get even bigger and more mainstream.

As I understand, scientific socialism acknowledges class struggle and current material conditions, but still requires overthrow of capitalist systems. You’re suggesting it’s easier to convince people to overthrow their banks (and have no personal banking?) rather than switch to a global credit union.

Under Capitalism, even with a unified Credit Union, people still suffer from being at the whims of wealthy Capitalists, and likely wouldn’t be willing to or able to donate en mass.

If you can imagine a global unified credit union, where everyone is equal, with better benefits than traditional banks, you’ve essentially removed capitalists from banking - think about that. You could do the same with other essential industries like education, healthcare, food etc.

Revolution requires convincing 8 billion people of a possible utopia whereas market socialism exists right now to some degree - FOSS, cooperatives, credit unions etc. are all part of market socialism. 120 million Americans for example are part of credit unions - more than any big bank in America. If we connected all the credit unions so they could talk to each other, you could transact with any branch or ATM - it could rival any big bank. It is harder to convince someone to upend their life for revolution than to convince them the benefits of credit unions over regular banking (again, markets, or in this case banking exists, and we need to engage with it currently). As for donating, many donate to Wikipedia, fediverse etc. When we are not starving, we’ll donate it all to a good cause.

Thanks again!

In other words, Market Socialism is nice in that it removes exploitation, but is no nearer to Communism than Capitalism. The leap to public ownership is no closer, just the relations of exploitation are removed. How do we get to Communism, and what role can worker cooperatives play in that? The solution is to perform a revolution and establish a Proletarian State. This is a hard requirement to begin with, otherwise you can’t simply accomplish Market Socialism, the bourgeoisie would never allow it.

Right, so market socialism is better than capitalism, and I’m arguing it is easier to get there than revolution. I’m also kinda arguing that market socialism will naturally lead to everyone just donating their belongings to the greater good once everyone is content with what they get from market socialism, otherwise I see it impractical to simply snatch private assets for public ownership. Lastly, I agree it would seem like the bourgeoise would never allow it, but things like Linux and the fediverse exist and they’ll only get stronger and harder to beat with network effect.

Thanks, Cowbee! It seems to me, that in practice (as opposed to theory, not game), if socialism is 5 steps away on the chessboard, then market socialism has to be step 1, simply because that’s where we are (1. markets aren’t going away tomorrow, and 2. everyone currently has to engage in the economy one way or another). It’s what is the ‘adjacent next’. Changing everyone’s minds all at once seems mathematically impossible. I guess what I’m trying to say is that it is possible that all our collective energies might be better spent focusing on just step 1.

Suppose we replace all capitalists with worker cooperatives. What happens when two worker cooperatives compete in free market? We’ll still be at capitalism, wont we?