Sharing because I found this very interesting.

The Four Thieves Vinegar Collective has a DIY design for a home lab you can set up to reproduce expensive medication for dirt cheap, producing medication like that used to cure Hepatitis C, along with software they developed that can be used to create chemical compounds out of common household materials.

  • @[email protected]
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    4 months ago

    Here’s a fun thought, the drug you make fails but doesn’t kill you.

    Instead you now have another life long ailment that cause pain/degradation of daily life.

    Sounds like a great idea.

      • @[email protected]
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        04 months ago

        Commercial drugs are giving people life long diseases on top of the ones they’re trying to cure?

        News to me, got any source?

        • @[email protected]
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          14 months ago

          The most notorious is probably thalidomide, but there are plenty others on this list of withdrawn drugs that cause long-term side effects.

  • oce 🐆
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    04 months ago

    He does mention the fact that medicine research is hard and requires money but doesn’t explain how to solve that. This is a big argument of big pharma prices, they say it finances future research. I think a good example is how incredibly fast we got a COVID vaccine. It happened because private investors had massively invested in research platforms and they invested because they are expecting gains.

    • @[email protected]
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      04 months ago

      that’s not the full story though. according to the NIH, the US government spent over 30 billion dollars on the covid vaccines.

      and this is not unique to the covid vaccine. here’s a source with two particularly damning quotes:

      “Since the 1930s, the National Institutes of Health has invested close to $900 billion in the basic and applied research that formed both the pharmaceutical and biotechnology sectors.”

      and

      A 2018 study on the National Institute of Health’s (NIH) financial contributions to new drug approvals found that the agency “contributed to published research associated with every one of the 210 new drugs approved by the Food and Drug Administration from 2010–2016.” More than $100 billion in NIH funding went toward research that contributed directly or indirectly to the 210 drugs approved during that six-year period.

      • oce 🐆
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        4 months ago

        Ok, so we should be able to control the prices for drugs where the research has been publicly funded. But how do we avoid losing the private investors who contributed?

        • @[email protected]
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          14 months ago

          well, according to the congressional budget office,

          In 2023, federal subsidies for health insurance are estimated to be $1.8 trillion

          and this report by research america shows that the private sector spent around $150 billion on “research and development” in 2019.

          it’s no secret that the private healthcare industry jacks up the prices of things to increase profits. so, some napkin math makes me think it’s not that far-fetched to think that we can save more than $150 billion in healthcare subsidies if we stop privatized healthcare and dramatically lower the costs of medical care. we could then put that $150 billion back into research, without needing to appease the private sector at all.

  • @[email protected]
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    14 months ago

    Man, I would be so worried about impurities and side reactions. A good example is the recalls of drugs because of nitrosamine contamination. If stuff like this already happens to the experts.

    And what is with the whole galenics side? How to make sure the absorption is about right…

  • @[email protected]
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    14 months ago

    I was first on the fence, but yeah, at the very least, it’s a clear signal to big pharma, and I welcome that move. Also, if this will actually get safe, reliable, and controlled enough, I’d love to have some basic spare parts and make my meds at home. But that would probably require something more complex than Microlab.

    Don’t trust your life with this unless you have to. Curious project nonetheless!

    • @[email protected]
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      4 months ago

      This could be very good for people with orphan diseases(diseases that are rare enough that they aren’t profitable for private companies to research)

      Also, having an orphan disease often results in insurance companies denying coverage for everything because they don’t have a policy written up for that specific disease… so there’s no script for the workers to follow. Then your doctor has to argue with them, which can take weeks, in the meantime you have no medication.

      Yeah, I’m not mad or anything. I wish I could’ve cooked up my own meds when insurance denied me life giving meds because they’d never heard of my disorder.

      • @[email protected]
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        14 months ago

        Insurance is absolutely, unambiguously, the worst. I had a stress echocardiogram denied by insurance yesterday because they don’t think I need it. A test to try to identify a problem, what’s my alternative? Wait to see if I drop dead? I guess in that sense I don’t need it but c’mon. And I’m on one of the “good” plans.

        It seems like “deny everything and we’ll save money on the people that can’t/won’t fight the denial” is actually common practice now.

        I hope their actuaries get to experience the bullshit and have time to regret their contributions to human suffering.

      • @[email protected]
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        4 months ago

        True! Hopefully, their tools are able to suggest ways to safely produce those meds, too.

        Also, I strongly hope they’ll build something able to accurately verify that processes went through as intended, with the desired product present and no known and harmful or unknown compounds formed. Chemistry is full of surprises, especially organic one…

        • @[email protected]
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          14 months ago

          That would ideal! Also it’d be good if it didn’t accidentally explode like meth labs tend to. Like you said, chemistry isn’t easy, but if this thing can work it’d make us far less dependent on greedy insurance companies and corrupt pharma companies.

  • @[email protected]
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    14 months ago

    This seems both awesome and dangerous. The two analogies that come to mind are home canning and home brewing. They’re both generally safe and easy. But every so often someone gives their family botulism.

    • @[email protected]
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      4 months ago

      True. A lot of drugs you can perform tests on. But there is an inherent risk. I don’t think making medicine at home is going to be many people’s first choice. I think the people most likely to pursue this are those for whom obtaining medication other ways is not possible. When the government makes it impossible for someone to obtain health care, either due to literally making it illegal or by allowing it to become completely unaffordable for working class people, then they have to resort to other options.

      With patience and diligent work it is possible to make many medications with (by comparison) significantly cheaper resources. And if someone were to do this, presumably, there are others who also have similar needs for the medications being produced. Which is how community medicine networks are formed. DIY Hormone replacement medications for trans people living in places where it’s illegal for them to access medication, or otherwise extremely difficult often access medicines made through networks like that.

      This isn’t really a new thing, but the ease of access certainly is.

  • @[email protected]
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    4 months ago

    They have released a guide on making a CLR (basically several different pieces of lab equipment controlled to automate some of the process) and software to run on it to assist in the process of making the medications. Specifically to try and improve consistency of the medications produced.

    It’s a really great cause. Worth reading the article. If someone had to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars cost to access life-saving medication, and they couldn’t afford it, something like this could legitimately save their life.

    • ArchRecordOP
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      14 months ago

      And it’s only made more inspiring by the fact that he has his own personal history with the pharmaceutical industry that didn’t work for him.

      I found another article on him and the collective, and there’s this honestly saddening quote:

      “A toast to the dead, for children with cancer and AIDS,” Laufer said, raising a glass of bourbon and quoting the hip hop artist Felipe Andres Coronel, better known as Immortal Technique. “A cure exists, and you probably could have been saved.”

      It’s even posted up on their page for the MicroLab right at the top.

  • @[email protected]
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    4 months ago

    By far one of the most interesting articles I’ve seen on Lemmy so far, thanks for the link

  • @[email protected]
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    14 months ago

    Four Thieves are legit. Controversial but they’re confronting a lot of uncomfortable truths that need to be addressed .

    • @[email protected]
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      14 months ago

      I you make your own, there is no risk for blindness. Blindness comes from methanol, not ethanol. If you use a yeast based process to produce the alcohol and then distill it, there is no way to accidentally produce methanol in that process. The cases where people get blind or die from moonshine stems from when the feds replaced moonshine with methanol to be able to make that claim and disrupt the business of organized crime during the prohibition. There are still cases now and then where people try to make drinkable alcohol from some industrial base and don’t know how to.

      TLDR: Don’t buy, make.

        • @[email protected]
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          14 months ago

          You are correct. If I gave the impression that it is a safe endeavour, I am sorry. It is safe IF done correctly, but it can get explodey if you fuck up bad enough.

          Do your research, keep it small scale and don’t sell.

    • @[email protected]
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      14 months ago

      If you’re going to die because you can’t afford it, then does the risk really matter?

  • @[email protected]
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    14 months ago

    This is fantastic. If you know what the problem is, because you’ve been diagnosed or whatever, and you know what medicine will do it, and you are capable of making it, I see no issue at all with this. You don’t need a PhD in computer science to browse the internet.

    • @[email protected]
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      -14 months ago

      You’ve gone to a malicious website. Now you’ve died.

      See, the risks of surfing the web incorrectly are slightly different than the risks of creating medicine incorrectly.

  • @[email protected]
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    14 months ago

    Idk. Medicine is one of those skills where I prefer someone that has studied for 7 years vs me who watches a 15 min how to video and read webmd

    • @[email protected]
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      14 months ago

      Obviously the people who would benefit most from this technology would prefer a doctor and pharmacy to be involved as well. The point is that personal preference doesn’t really mean much when the preferred option is inaccessible and the alternative is death or a dramatically reduced quality of life. You do the best with what you have.

    • ArchRecordOP
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      14 months ago

      Well that’s the coolest part about this, everything is based on the existing research.

      The drugs they’re making are the exact same chemical compounds formulated by the drug companies, and contrary to popular belief, the compounds can actually be relatively simple, it’s the process of finding which compound that takes the most money from R&D.

      So if you have 2-3 very standard chemicals, with well known reactions and outcomes, and you have the exact blueprint of what the final result should look like, and you can chemically test it afterward to see if it combined as expected, then anyone who has enough reason to use this instead of traditional means (i.e. being priced out of lifesaving medication completely) can be reasonably confident it will work.

  • @[email protected]
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    14 months ago

    …well, this is a good way to shine the spotlight on a massive problem. I’d be pretty hesitant to take DIY meds unless it was life-critical and my only option (which… lots of don’t have that option, and just die after hitting the health paygate…). The value here is its potential to slap some sense into the US and get our broken-as-fuck healthcare system caught up with the rest of the world so people don’t need moonshine insulin or w/e in the first place.

    That this conversation is even taking place is testament to how horrible our current system is.

  • @[email protected]
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    14 months ago

    This is extremely dangerous and also something I feel must be considered a natural and obvious extension of a right I believe to be fundamental: bodily autonomy.

    Would I do this? Probably not, maybe for some medicines, that are easily made administrable from bulk chemicals but likely not. But behind all rights stands bodily autonomy. It is your flesh and not mine. If we don’t want people doing this themselves the lever we should use is easing access to expert made medicines. Desperate people do stupid things.

    Also this is cyberpunk as hell and aesthetically I’m so here for it

    • @[email protected]
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      14 months ago

      This is extremely dangerous and also something I feel must be considered a natural and obvious extension of a right I believe to be fundamental: bodily autonomy.

      There is a significant distinction between the right to bodily autonomy and the right to distribute quack medicine. And that’s sort of the rub. As soon as you start marketing your product to third parties under false pretexts, we’re not longer talking about an individual’s right to self. And we get into an even more tangled web when we start talking about health care for children or the elderly, who lack the mental acuity to make informed choices.

      Also this is cyberpunk as hell and aesthetically I’m so here for it

      Everyone wants to get the military grade Sandevistan drive. Nobody thinks they’re going to succumb to cyberpsychosis.

    • @[email protected]
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      14 months ago

      Compounding pharmacies should not be subjected to patents. Then the costs are all local instead of tithes to the corporate clergy.

    • @[email protected]
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      4 months ago

      I think an off the shelf microlab that can reliably synthesize a particular medicine is something that’s commercially viable, which is probably a safe middle ground here and sort of what they’re proof of concepting.

      Rather than putting together a DIY lab like this, a pre-made kit that makes one medication would easily make a ton of meds available. Not just here but all around the world.

      I would say the next step would probably be to create a certification process for microlabs categorizing their safety and effectiveness