This information is being reported at a couple of international sites, but (if accurate) it has apparently been blacked out in the U.S.
The bomber at a fertility clinic in Palm Springs, California, has been identified as a 25-year-old man who left an online manifesto in which he described himself as a pro-mortalist, saying people didn’t give consent to exist.
The suspect is Guy Edward Bartkus, a 25-year-old man from Twentynine Palms, a small city about 35 miles northeast of Palm Springs. He left a 30-minute audio recording in which he explained his motive for the attack.
“I figured I would just make a recording explaining why I’ve decided to bomb an IVF building, or clinic,” he said at the beginning of the recording. “Basically, it just comes down to I’m angry that I exist and that, you know, nobody got my consent to bring me here.”
Describing himself as anti-life, he adds: “I’m very against [IVF], it’s extremely wrong. These are people who are having kids after they’ve sat there and thought about it. How much more stupid can it get?”
I resent having no means to have consented to my existence as the next nihilist, but you don’t see me taking it out on everybody else. Just take antidepressants and bitch on the Internet like a civilized misanthrope.
I think this is my favorite comment of the day.
Probably just another conservative nutjob terrorist.
A part of me understands his resentment for life but dude. Just go rent a sports car and drive it off of a cliff. Instead of hurting others.
Indirectly or directly, the deep state created this kid. I got the same opinions too man, and I’d rather shoot my head off with a shotgun before I go around and roll in the mud like these fucking Yankee soldier boys. You literally cannot trust anything anymore. You have to have strong framework to see through all the bullshit. I would Google the Imperial Boomerang or in the Intelligence Department, they call it blowback. There’s also a book by Barbara Walters, How Civil Wars Start and How to Stop Them. She is an exCIA analyst. Anyways, no war with the class war.
He seems to deliberately chosen a day when the offices were closed, so perhaps he wasn’t trying to hurt other people. It would have been so much worse if this had been done on a weekday.
I have seen this kind of statement in some other place multiple times… guess this guy really didn’t find any beauty in life. It is hard to take seriously that someone would really go there this far… he could have just killed him self
they normally call themselves anti-natalist instead of pro-mortalist… but it seem to be the same thing
Hi, Anti-Natalist here, I am not pro-murder. Murder is harm, and anti-natalism is about preventing harm.
They are not the same thing
It’s not. One of the core concepts of AN, the reason for it all really, is that suffering is bad. One consequence is that procreation holds a negative moral value, however another is that you should not cause suffering e.g. by fucking blowing people up.
What’s funny is that a planned parenthood would secretly get him off.
He would have done more in the service of antinatalism by becoming a doctor and performing sterilization surgeries; lots of childfree people who want to get sterilization have a difficult time finding a doctor willing to perform the procedure. He would be providing the market with an in-demand service.
Or barring medical skills, donating money to various organizations (e.g. Planned Parenthood) that would advance his cause.
From what I’m seeing reported in US, they haven’t released the name, and mention “posted rambling online writings”
So, I’m glad I read my news from multiple sources, including here. Context is an important part of understanding what the hell is going on in the world.
Haven’t released the name; must be a white man.
No mention of “thug”, “gangster”, or any other racially-motivated descriptor, either.
Definitely a white dude.
Clears up my confusion on why someone would bomb an IVF clinic - that’s usually reserved for abortion clinics among American nutters.
Same here. I very nearly posted a $1,000 bet that whoever did this, they had a Sky Daddy, and another $1,000 that said person would directly attribute their belief in said Sky Daddy in why they were motivated to do this in the first place.
Come to think of it, this angry nutter saved me $2,000 today.
I guess the nicest thing I can do in return is point out that I’d happily be taxed more to get more competent social workers and psychologists into schools and normalize getting help especially in earlier years before pathology becomes deeply internalized.
There’s an angle to bomb it from that end, as well: if life begins at fertilization, then IFV involves a whole bunch of murders.
Their stance on IVF is often a good tell as to whether an anti-abortionist is a grifter or a true believer. Spoiler: it’s mostly grifters
We’re angry that you existed too bub.
Man, the US is ultra-mega-fucked. I do not think they will fix their problem anytime soon. This is going to reach a fever pitch at some point in the future where they will repeat their own past or the mistakes of other nations that have fallen in the past. The slow decay of society.
I do not think they will fix their problem anytime soon.
I think we’re still a long way from them even recognizing the actual problems that need fixing.
I think we’re still on the “double down on the problems” phase
Roughly 160 years behind the 8 ball on fixing the country.
As the saying goes goes “the best time was 10 years ago, the second best time is today”
I mean sure… but how the fuck does one fix when the population of a country is now living in two separate realities? I make my comment because our political divide is still the same ones that lead to the original Civil War and the wounds have been allowed to fester for the past century and a half. So now we’re a country where both sides are sure the other side is morally evil… and honestly I’m at the point where I can’t even disagree with that when I understand that’s a problem so I’m definitely at… well… we’re fucked?
If you got a better idea… good luck.
A lot of us recognize the problems. There are just too many and this country is fubar. Why do I still live here? I can’t leave now. And before, myself and my partner are too established, and the very real threat of needing to leave was so horrible that we were in shock. Like a horrible gut feeling of cognitive dissonance - I know it’s a problem, but I’d much rather just have nightmares and die, I guess. Also ptsd and adhd, and living in a very educated, very liberal state in a VERY liberal area helps dramatically lower the immediate risk and need for action, giving us hope that our locales can protect us from having to uproot everything and take several years, again, to get potentially re-established.
If it isn’t recognition of the glorification of something that shouldn’t even be tolerated and should be legislated out of being practiced with punishments that compete with hate crimes, then no we don’t recognize the problem. And most people who are even against Trump don’t. It is his signature brand and why he represents our people as they are perfectly. (I voted against him every time for the record, but he is a monument to our culture’s sins. He’s like the zeitgeist of the United States of America anthropomorphized into human form.)
That something being avarice.
There was a time when there was mass recognition of the problem, but the Mr. Potters of the world got control when they convinced the masses herp derp you could be rich and shit on your neighbors too! The George Baileys arguing for taking what you need and no more, for community, and most importantly for telling the greed class “No, and by the way fuck you for offering your faustian bargain” lost and died.
The types most laughed at for occupying Wall Street. We clearly don’t recognize the problem, because I hear almost nothing about razing the capital markets to cinder. Those rigged casinos that commoditize our very humanity to be bought, sold, and betrayed when profitable, those market’s utter conquest of their regulators and government need to be destroyed, their arbitrary tabulations of “value” erased, and currency retied to either honest labor, or benefitting directly those who labored for the value of products/services.
Without that, today is the best day of the rest of our lives, and sadly, few recognize that fact. On the bright side, if we don’t, and we know we won’t because our population has been made too ignorant to, capital market made climate change will do our job for us and wipe those markets clean, along with every other aspect of civilization in just a few decades. We have no reason not to stop them save our subsistence opiates like social media and fast food, and that, pathetically myself included, appears to be enough.
I’m not sure what you’re getting at. This has nothing to do with the US political zeitgeist. It’s just an extremist following through on his values.
OK but the American political zeitgeist is extremists following through on their values. It’s ideologically rooted acts of mass violence
We will start fixing ourselves once Bob the Midwest swamprat farmer can no longer get his Doritos at the Walmart. Everyone will finally wake and rise up, the sycophants will all be culled. We will all claim American Exceptionalism saved the day, and keep on being crazy and dumb in new and exciting ways.
Cos he’s angry he exists, he’ll hurt other people who want to exist.
I can’t imagine a bigger piece of shit.
He could just kill himself and be done with it, that is an option.
Did you read the article? His plan was to prevent people from existing who didn’t consent. Which he failed at. But he did kill himself…
People existing who didn’t consent must be all people, so I guess he was just angry that people exist and saw the IVF clinic as something that helps make people exist. I can kind of see the logic, though he seems to have answered his own question about stupid.
I am pretty sure he knew no one was there but the embryos.
I think 4 people were injured, as I saw from other articles on this. It isn’t clear if these injuries were to people inside the building or elsewhere.
Oh shit, I missed that. I just saw no one died except him
Even killing himself is still dragging other people into his bullshit. Somebody has to discover the body, call the authorities, there’s an investigation, and crime scene clean up, etc. etc.
This causes ongoing trauma to everyone involved, but he’s too self centered to see that.
He has BPD in America. He’s a victim here, too. This is what happens when you have a country driven by greed and hatred. Everyone is traumatized here. Give some grace.
Why do you say he has BPD?
I’d like to know too. The only thing I can find suggesting this outside of the above comment is a thread on Reddit where someone also just casually says he had BPD with no proof.
People like to throw around mental health diagnoses to themselves and others as if it adds a little spice to kick things up a notch.
Very ableist
Don’t quote me on this, but I’m pretty sure if I grew up in America I would have gone on some sort of rampage by now
As someone living in America I have been in mental and physical decline for years. I was born in the 21st century. Our wealth is drawn from blood, from here and abroad.
That is literally the most California of the options for this nutballs motivation.
For reference in case anyone isn’t familiar - 29 Palms is a small shitty city in the inland area where it is hotter than piss, and dry. There is a Navy and Marine Corps installation there and not much else. If I recall correctly it is considered to be one of the shittiest places to be sent by Marines.
About thirty thousand people, it’s in the Mojave, one of the stopping places before entering a national park, military installation and the local college has a special section on their website about offering programs to military personnel, specially about HVAC.
I’ve been to places like that, and I strongly recommend never staying overnight. And if you have to, stay in your room and do not go to a local establishment that serves alchol.
Why not? Curious.
TwentyNine Palms is not known for its low crime rate. If you dodge a mugging you will go down to the drunk Marine looking to start something.
There was a time, almost exactly 2000 years ago, when you could take for granted that people loved being alive and loved themselves. So much so that a source from the period said, “Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater […]”
Maybe the big question should not be whether someone can consent to being brought to life, but why on earth we find ourselves in a world where people question what was so obvious in the past. That is, the problem is not whether we should have children or not, but how to ensure that the children we have, love living in the world we make for them.
I agree with the second paragraph completely. Although I’m not sure about the accuracy or relevancy of the first paragraph.
Around 2000 years ago the Romans held slaves and were crucifying people by the thousands. Amphitheaters hosted gladiator games and executions while huge crowds watched. A quick count on Wikipedia lists more than 40 wars just involving Rome from 200 BC to 200 AD and there were dozens of wars involving China during the same period. There were undoubtedly hundreds if not thousands of additional undocumented battles around the world.
There’s plenty of evidence that 2000 years ago you could not “take it for granted that people loved being alive and loved themselves”, including the fact that a “source” would feel it necessary to issue an order requiring people to love their neighbors.
And quality of life was so much shittier without modern medicine. This is why people would have like eight kids. Since half of them wouldn’t survive infancy. And the mentality or motivation to do such a thing only comes from this propaganda which is what guy in OP is apparently complaining about.
Shut up and get back to work! You must create capital for those at the top to enjoy, this is the only point to life.
Sounds like commie drivel, straight to the coal mines with you!
Right to jail, right away.
Because we live in a time in history that is like no other. In comparison to the past, we have access to foods and clothes that kings can only dream of. Prosperity is in abundance for many (relatively speaking to the past) and many are far detached from violence.
(Minus places like Gaza and many others across the world)
My guess is these conditions plus the breakdown in family and community bonds is what creates these characters who do things like this.
That is the right takeaway I think
Is there really none other commandment greater? Aren’t you supposed to love god first? Aren’t the first three commandments all about loving god, because god is all powerful, but also super insecure.
The three commandments you mention are from the Ten Commandments, Old Testament stuff. There is one commandment listed before this one, and it’s to love God above all else. The ellipsis at the end of my quote stands for, “than these.”
If this is accurate it’s way weirder than anything I had on my radar.
Why? We aren’t taking care of our people. I’m sure many of them feel the same way or close. Lots of people don’t want to live in misery, especially when they realize most of it is an actively created construct by others. If you combine that with the very common belief in an afterlife, it becomes a very obvious and likely path.
Could you explain how a belief in an afterlife is a factor in this? Wouldn’t be the other way because you would be held accountable for your actions?
To add to the other comment, the two concepts of an afterlife and punishment or reward are separate concepts and don’t have to coincide. Some faiths explicitly believe in heaven and not hell, and some neither.
Always remember when thinking about possibilities, given totally made up shit, the answer is always all possibilities exist and must be considered.
Not who you replied to but: If you believe a soul is created at conception, and that fetuses that are never born alive and baptized automatically go to heaven, yourself being sent to hell would logically be a sacrifice for the greater good to spare suffering and guarantee a place in heaven for the embryos.
Well that certainly wasn’t on my terrorism bingo card. What the fuck is this timeline we’re in?
I’ve been calling out these antinatalist types for a while, they’re fucked up. It was getting pretty bad on reddit years ago. Almost feels like a psyops thing tbh with how hard it was being spread.
Honestly, I think bringing children into this world right now is irresponsible. But that’s my opinion
Pretty strong here on Lemmy too.
I get why people might choose not to have children, but to assert that others shouldn’t is a whole other thing.
Just in the last few days there was a post about how climate change is going to effect children born today - comments were pretty wild.
I get why people might choose not to have children, but to assert that others shouldn’t is a whole other thing.
Plenty of people seem to have no problem asserting that others should have children.
But really, the problem isn’t about asserting what one should/shouldn’t do. At that stage, it is still just one’s opinion. It becomes a problem when someone resorts to using intimidation, coercion, or outright violence to try and impose one’s will.
I’ve never encountered the problem of being told I should have children, nor intimidation, coercion, or violence.
I’ve never encountered the problem of being told I should have children
Childfree people encounter this all the time.
nor intimidation, coercion, or violence.
It can happen in abusive relationships, but it would be rare in more general situations.
Arguing that people should consider not having kids because of the state of the climate, cost of living, state of society, overpopulation, or whatever, is fine as long as it is done respectfully of other people’s freedom to decide. But evidently that was not bombing guy’s approach.
I tried looking up some communities after I saw people complain about them. And 99.9999% of it is people venting about being told for the 50th time in twenty years that they’ll change their mind about having kids any day now. Or doctors refusing hysterectomies to unmarried women because they don’t have their husband consent(this still regularly happens in the US and Europe. To the point where there are resources where you can look up doctors who aren’t living in the 50s). Then you see the community brought up by other people and they’re often described as filled with people who want to murder children.
It’s honestly quite wild how much people take those generalized accusations at face value because they saw one or two peoeple say something inappropriate.
I have kids, and being told that I’ve mistreated them by having them is kind of offensive.
Way to ignore their valid point. No one is saying that
I have kids (some grown up) and sometimes spontaneously have this worry myself, just from looking at the news, especially the climate destruction and the persecution of LGBTQ+ people since none of my kids fit the “straight white cis men only” template of the right. When I was young I was quite clear that I didn’t want to have kids in a society that was destroying its planet. But adult decisions can be more complex and life went a different way.
Yeah, the people always ragging on anti natalists honestly are liars. They are really just touchy and insecure about their decision to have kids. They have to justify that decision by demonizing anyone’s decision to the contrary
Nothing wrong with not choosing to have kids or whatever, but yeah, this is really taking that ideology to a ridiculous extreme.
Antinatalism or anti-natalism is a philosophical view that deems procreation to be unethical or unjustifiable. Antinatalists thus argue that humans should abstain from making children.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antinatalism
Antinatalists are beyond people who decided to not have kids.
It’s a respectable philosophical position with serious arguments. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with advocating it. Bombing for the cause is a different matter.
It’s more like the real problem here is extremism. Taking any belief to an absolutist and extreme degree is a problem. This also includes values and positions that are considered mainstream.
Not really. This is the same pants-on-head level reasoning that leads people to oppose medical procedures on animals or even suggest that we should kill them to avoid suffering merely because they can’t consent to anything. Just because they can’t consent doesn’t mean we can’t infer what their interests are.
Most of these people are just depressed and universalize that experience onto everyone else. But the reality is that most people are glad they were born, and parents can reasonably predict how the lives of their children will be. People who can’t provide a good environment for their kids should abstain, but I would even argue that for those who can, having kids is morally good since it brings the joys of life to more people.
You are arguing that most people enjoy life, and those who predict that others’ lives will be full of suffering tend to projecting their own feelings onto those as yet unborn. The antinatalist might argue that, though historically this may have been the case, the circumstances are now different: climate change or the likelihood of nuclear war (for example) is sure to bring suffering hitherto unknown to us, for everyone in the coming generations. The debate would then be about (1) how certain this future suffering is, (2) whether there’s a type of suffering that makes any life not worth living (or whether the value of life even relates to what suffering it contains), and (3) how much suffering, or what kind of suffering, we can best predict for these future people. We can have these debates, but I don’t think it’s obvious that the reasoning of someone who disagrees with you must be “pants-on-head level”. These are serious questions that intelligent people can consider, and the antinatalist position is a serious position that you don’t have to be an idiot to arrive at.
The antinatalist might argue that, though historically this may have been the case
Historically, approximately half of children died before the age of 5.
But I also don’t think it’s fair to compare modern reproduction with historical, because the contexts are very different. For starters, it is more of a conscious choice now due to modern contraceptives.
Secondly, modern society (at least in developed nations) tend to place a significant value on human life. Look at how things like medicine and safety have improved over the past 100 years, and of course the huge drop in child mortality rates. There is much more consideration given to individual well-being. There is of course another angle to look at: maximizing joy vs minimizing suffering. Positive utilitarianism vs negative utilitarianism. Antinatalism clearly focuses on the latter.
Not really. Just because you find something unethical doesn’t mean any of the shit you’re writing and implying here. You want people to think those random Redditors are murderers or would want to be but we both know that’s false.
I never wanted to exist is soemthing I felt a lot when I realized death was a thing as a kid and religion felt fake, so I kinda get it, but its very extremist to the point of feeling like its out of a fantasy world, like no more humans because existence is suffering lol
I admit that I agree with the dude, but not to the point I’m going to start killing people over that belief.
These guys exist on lemmy as well. I’m not sure what sort of people are attracted to that doomer ideology but I fucking hate that defeatist mentality.
Oh I didn’t ask to be born, we have too many people anyway, you’re so irresponsible to have kids with climate change and fascism and all, entirely ignoring the fact that this is at best a niche ideology amongst the educated part of western societies and will have zero bearing on the future aside from diminishing that specific demographic.
If anything those people, the educated and skilled, should be reproducing more, not less, because ensuring a liveable tomorrow needs these kids. Your psy ops idea has some merit as well, it really seems odd that only western “liberal elites” are buying into this insanity.
E: your boos mean nothing I have seen what makes you people cheer
Edit: wah
nobody got my consent to bring me here
I think every child tries this once. Parent says “I brought you in to this world and I raised you up so I deserve a little respect” or similar. Yes demanding respect like this is a dick move and a great example of toxic parenting, but it’s the style of parenting most millennials encountered. Child responds “well I never asked to be born”.
The obvious problem is… it’s not possible to ask someone whether they would like to be conceived prior to conception.
How much more stupid can it get?
Well, if adults are trying this “I never asked to be born” shit I guess it can’t get much stupider.
He said he had been diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder. So it’s mental illness and just fucking sad.
As someone with BPD, I can confirm this guy is an idiot. If you don’t want to be alive the first step is killing yourself, not someone else…
From linked article: “Bartkus is believed to be the only person who was killed in Saturday’s bombing at American Reproductive Centers, though officials have yet to formally identify his remains. Four other people were injured and taken to hospital.”
Though four others were injured, he Did follow the belief of “killing yourself, not someone else”…
Good point, maybe he shouldn’t have hurt anyone though. I’m pretty indifferent on blowing up a fertility clinic however, I assume everything they did was insured and I can certainly understand the guy’s point of view.
The obvious problem is… it’s not possible to ask someone whether they would like to be conceived prior to conception.
Agreed, but how do you go from that to “therefore it’s fine to conceive”?
If someone at a party is passed out and therefore it’s not possible to communicate with them, we assume they don’t consent to anything. Why doesn’t the same reasoning apply here?
It’s entirely possible to answer. I answer this question all the time in my head because I don’t like living.
My answer is “I wouldn’t feel anything if I wasn’t conceived., because I wouldn’t exist and wouldn’t have feelings to feel. So it’s a non question.”
It’s my same answer to “what if your parents decided to abort you?” Asked by pro-lifers.
It’s my same answer to “what if your parents decided to abort you?” Asked by pro-lifers.
I get a chuckle out of this. It isn’t the threat that they think it is.
Seriously lol
Someone passed out at a party will wake up sooner or later. Their lack of ability to consent is temporary.
The ability to pro-create is a fundamental element of “life”. I’m not going to engage with an argument that it’s unethical, sorry.
Someone passed out at a party will wake up sooner or later. Their lack of ability to consent is temporary.
Someone who hasn’t been conceived yet will be born sooner or later (following successful conception and gestation). Their lack of ability to consent is temporary.
Come on mate. Just to point out the obvious here…
The ability of a yet-to-be-conceived entity to consent to being conceived is not temporary, given that its not possible to consent to something retrospectively.
So we’re back to: you can’t get consent for creating a new life. Since consent can’t be obtained, you have to justify the position of doing something that affects someone without their consent.
There is precedence for this. I think a better analogy, that avoids the paradoxical issues of non-existence, would be life-saving treatment for someone who is unconscious. The treatment can either be administered (without consent, due to the patient being unconscious) to save their life. Or the treatment can be withheld and the patient dies. Justifying this treatment is predicated on the treatment being to the benefit of the recipient and is generally accepted with some various exceptions.
Many people would be of the opinion that creating a new person is beneficial to said new person. However this is where the fundamental disagreement between antinatalists and pronatalists would be. Is creating a new person beneficial or detrimental to the person being created? The hard antinatalism position says that it is “always bad”, but of course the answer to this question can be conditional as well and need not be an absolute “always good” or “always bad”. And people have different thresholds for where this point is. That’s it, that’s the difference of opinion.
I don’t really care what the hard antinatalism position is in the same way I don’t care what the hard flat earth position is.
You’re talking about it as though it’s a credible ideology when in reality it is, at best, a nutty thought experiment with no real world application.
It’s not a question of whether being brought into existence is good.
As a parent, I acknowledged and accepted the risk that a potential child might not have wanted to be born. That’s it. Presently, I don’t know how I will navigate that if it turns out to be the case, the same way I don’t know how I will navigate my daughter dating or my son watching porn, but I do know I’m going to try my best to figure those things out when I encounter them.
Every parent since the dawn of time has made up solutions as problems have arisen, some better than others. No parent seriously considered whether their unconceived child consented.
You’re talking about it as though it’s a credible ideology when in reality it is, at best, a nutty thought experiment with no real world application.
It is a credible ideology, even if you disagree with it, and there are legitimate discussions to be had in academic and philosophical circles. And it absolutely does have real world applications, even if these are limited in scope:
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Many people choose to personally abstain from reproduction out of these considerations.
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Veganism is, at its core, a form of applied antinatalism.
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The push for spay/neuter of companion animals is another direct application of this ideology
Again, there is room for it so long as it remains limited in scope and isn’t taken to an extreme degree such as engaging in abhorrent acts of violence.
It’s not a question of whether being brought into existence is good.
Maybe it should be. If not a question of whether it is good or not, then what is it a question of? And if one does not believe that it is good, then why proceed?
No parent seriously considered whether their unconceived child consented.
This is due to selection bias. One might presume that those who do give this serious consideration would refrain from becoming parents.
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That’s fine, but there’s no rational basis for your position, and therefore no reason to call the dude “stupid” regarding that. He thinks life sucks and you don’t but that’s just a difference in values.
The difference in values is fine. The bombing clinics, less so.
I never asked to be born this stupid, but here I am
