• finitebanjo@lemmy.world
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    1 day ago

    Not everything anti-establishment is left or right. The strategies the nazis used were false flags and complete narrative control followed by regulatory capture, martial law, and then finally taking what they wanted by force.

    If you claim those tactics for your ideology then I don’t associate with you.

    You’re probably referring to right wing populism, right?

    • Schmoo@slrpnk.net
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      1 day ago

      The strategies I’m referring to are best summed up as populism, yes. The left vs right terminology originally referred to those who opposed or supported monarchy, respectively. In Weimar Germany those who opposed the political establishment in favor of working class movements were considered socialist, irrespective of their other beliefs.

      What I’m saying is that as capital S Socialism gained popularity among the working class, fascist movements appropriated the Socialists populist methods, taking advantage of the work that Socialists had already done in organizing working class opposition to the political establishment. The majority were not ideologues, they simply knew the status quo was not serving them and were looking for explanations, which at one point only Socialists were providing (though arguably not very effectively). That’s when fascism emerged to provide an alternative explanation; one which was not a threat to the wealthy and powerful, and played into the deep-rooted prejudices of the time.

      • finitebanjo@lemmy.world
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        1 day ago

        Well yes of course, in this context communism and socialism aren’t very literal aside from the parties empty promises. That was a given in the historical context, as there has never been a true communism by definition.

        • skulblaka@sh.itjust.works
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          18 hours ago

          Then why are you trying to say that Nazi Germany was directly created by communism if they never practiced communism?

          • finitebanjo@lemmy.world
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            18 hours ago

            Because the splintering of the left wing as a result of radical Communist Party spoiling Social Democrat and Centrist parties resulting in failure to form a left or centrist government for 3 years allowed the Nazis to take over and effectively end the republic. And also, even if they opposed communism and practiced socialism, they were all basically favors of the same thing but had different leaders in mind.

            • Keeponstalin@lemmy.world
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              13 hours ago

              That’s not really true. It was a coordinated effort to dismantle any and all worker protections, rights, and organization.

              Blackshirts and Reds - Michael Parenti - Ch 1

              In Germany, a similar pattern of complicity between fascists and capitalists emerged. German workers and farm laborers had won the right to unionize, the eight-hour day, and unemployment insurance. But to revive profit levels, heavy industry and big finance wanted wage cuts for their workers and massive state subsidies and tax cuts for themselves.

              During the 1920s, the Nazi Sturmabteilung or SA, the brown-shirted storm troopers, subsidized by business, were used mostly as an antilabor paramilitary force whose function was to terrorize workers and farm laborers. By 1930, most of the tycoons had concluded that the Weimar Republic no longer served their needs and was too accommodating to the working class. They greatly increased their subsidies to Hitler, propelling the Nazi party onto the national stage. Business tycoons supplied the Nazis with generous funds for fleets of motor cars and loudspeakers to saturate the cities and villages of Germany, along with funds for Nazi party organizations, youth groups, and paramilitary forces. In the July 1932 campaign, Hitler had sufficient funds to fly to fifty cities in the last two weeks alone.

              In that same campaign the Nazis received 37.3 percent of the vote, the highest they ever won in a democratic national election. They never had a majority of the people on their side. To the extent that they had any kind of reliable base, it generally was among the more affluent members of society. In addition, elements of the petty bourgeoisie and many lumpenproletariats served as strong-arm party thugs, organized into the SA storm troopers. But the great majority of the organized working class supported the Communists or Social Democrats to the very end.

              In the December 1932 election, three candidates ran for president: the conservative incumbent Field Marshal von Hindenburg, the Nazi candidate Adolph Hitler, and the Communist party candidate Ernst Thaelmann. In his campaign, Thaelmann argued that a vote for Hindenburg amounted to a vote for Hitler and that Hitler would lead Germany into war. The bourgeois press, including the Social Democrats, denounced this view as “Moscow inspired.” Hindenburg was re-elected while the Nazis dropped approximately two million votes in the Reichstag election as compared to their peak of over 13.7 million.

              True to form, the Social Democrat leaders refused the Communist party’s proposal to form an eleventh-hour coalition against Nazism. As in many other countries past and present, so in Germany, the Social Democrats would sooner ally themselves with the reactionary Right than make common cause with the Reds.3 Meanwhile a number of right-wing parties coalesced behind the Nazis and in January 1933, just weeks after the election, Hindenburg invited Hitler to become chancellor.

              Upon assuming state power, Hitler and his Nazis pursued a politico-economic agenda not unlike Mussolini’s. They crushed organized labor and eradicated all elections, opposition parties, and independent publications. Hundreds of thousands of opponents were imprisoned, tortured, or murdered. In Germany as in Italy, the communists endured the severest political repression of all groups.

              Here were two peoples, the Italians and Germans, with different histories, cultures, and languages, and supposedly different temperaments, who ended up with the same repressive solutions because of the compelling similarities of economic power and class conflict that prevailed in their respective countries. In such diverse countries as Lithuania, Croatia, Rumania, Hungary, and Spain, a similar fascist pattern emerged to do its utmost to save big capital from the impositions of democracy.4

              • finitebanjo@lemmy.world
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                10 hours ago

                So you’re saying the left parties were unified and did form a government and didn’t lose votes to the Nazis in every election before Hitler?

                Because if that is what you’re saying then you’re lying. But if that is not what you’re saying then you just pasted 7 Paragraphs to say a whole fucking lot of nothing, @[email protected]

                Thanks for stopping by to be a great example of the kind of fucking Tankie bastard nobody likes. Hey do you recommend I do or do not read some theory?

                • Keeponstalin@lemmy.world
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                  5 hours ago

                  If that’s as surface level as you care to engage with the subject matter, I’m not sure engaging with theory or historian works (Micheal Parenti is a historian if you weren’t sure) would interest you but I’d be glad to be wrong. There clearly wasn’t unity, the SPD during the 1920s shifted to a more centrist platform and fought much more against worker uprisings than fascist movements despite enacting progressive policies when in power. If you have no interest in how capital interests affected the political landscape of Germany at the expense of the working class and in favor of more right-wing populism, we can just agree to disagree. I focus on material analysis, class warfare, and the interests of capital owners. Don’t know why you called me a tankie when I’ve never supported authoritarianism but whatever

                  A few of the sources from the first chapter:

                  1 Among the thousands of titles that deal with fascism, there are a few worthwhile exceptions that do not evade questions of political economy and class power, for instance: Gaetano Salvemini, Under the Ax of Fascism (New York: Howard Fertig, 1969); Daniel Guerin, Fascism and Big Business (New York: Monad Press/Pathfinder Press, 1973); James Pool and Suzanne Pool, Who Financed Hitler (New York: Dial Press, 1978); Palmiro Togliatti, Lectures on Fascism (New York: International Publishers, 1976); Franz Neumann, Behemoth (New York: Oxford University Press, 1944); R. Palme Dutt, Fascism and Social Revolution (New York: International Publisher, 1935).

                  2 Between January and May 1921, “the fascists destroyed 120 labor headquarters, attacked 243 socialist centers and other buildings, killed 202 workers (in addition to 44 killed by the police and gendarmerie), and wounded 1,144.” During this time 2,240 workers were arrested and only 162 fascists. In the 1921-22 period up to Mussolini’s seizure of state power, “500 labor halls and cooperative stores were burned, and 900 socialist municipalities were dissolved”: Dutt, Fascism and Social Revolution, 124.

                  3 Earlier in 1924, Social Democratic officials in the Ministry of Interior used Reichswehr and Free Corps fascist paramilitary troops to attack left-wing demonstrators. They imprisoned seven thousand workers and suppressed Communist party newspapers: Richard Plant, The Pink Triangle (New York: Henry Holt, 1986), 47.